whining about CAN-SPAM? Canada has nothing

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Canada just entered the Do No Call List era a few weeks back. Politicians
exempted themselves, of course.

At this point Canada remains the only G8 country which does not even have
a feeble CAN-SPAM type of anti-spam statute.

Canada is also the only G8 country without a Criminal Code definition of
Identity Theft.

Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors should
stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in their offices
to review reports prepared by employees of food processing companies.

He is also reportedly about to try to convince the other G8 countries
that the way out of the current deregulation induced banking crisis is to
further reduce the amount of regulation applied to financial institutions.

He recently got a reality check on his quaint notion that Canada has somehow
morphed into a Conservative country. After whining about parliament not
being able to shape his Conservative vision because he only has a minority
he called an election and won another minority. What a waste of $600
million.

[D. Stussy]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada just entered the Do No Call List era a few weeks back. Politicians
exempted themselves, of course.
At this point Canada remains the only G8 country which does not even have
a feeble CAN-SPAM type of anti-spam statute.
Canada is also the only G8 country without a Criminal Code definition of
Identity Theft.
Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors should
stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in their offices
to review reports prepared by employees of food processing companies.
He is also reportedly about to try to convince the other G8 countries
that the way out of the current deregulation induced banking crisis is to
further reduce the amount of regulation applied to financial institutions.
He recently got a reality check on his quaint notion that Canada has somehow
morphed into a Conservative country. After whining about parliament not
being able to shape his Conservative vision because he only has a minority
he called an election and won another minority. What a waste of $600
million.

Nice - you just effectively invited the world's spammers to move to your
country.
Definently time to stay away from moose-meat too.

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by D. Stussy
Nice - you just effectively invited the world's spammers to move to your
country.
Definently time to stay away from moose-meat too.

You don't think they already heard?

Canada has a decades old reputation as a haven for boiler rooms calling
sucker lists in the USA with a variety of scams. Quebec was the main
province for that. Police complained that Canada Post kept on delivering
cheques, money orders, etc. even after being advised that a particular
address was being used to collect money as part of a outright scam. Canada
Post says it doesn't have any discretion about returning or not delivering
mail. If the address is valid and there is no reason to believe a Criminal
Code violation is occuring Canada Post delivers it.

I saw TV news footage of dozens of envelopes being put through the mail
slot of the door of a closed and vacant Montreal gas station. They were
always gone the next time the letter carrier came around, so Canada Post
kept delivering.

The "phone busters" operation is a joint venture of the RCMP and the Ontario
Provincial Police. Quebec has it's own surté and doesn't seem interested in
shutting down telemarketing scams operating in Quebec. Their interest level
in shutting down spam probably matches that.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada has a decades old reputation as a haven for boiler rooms calling
sucker lists in the USA with a variety of scams. Quebec was the main
province for that.

The stated reason in the old days was because you would always get "out of
area" or "unidentified caller" on caller-id. Before the DNC list went live,
a LOT of the telemarketing calls to the US came from Canada. I don't know
how prevalent it is anymore - I don't get them anymore. *

[stinky]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada just entered the Do No Call List era a few weeks back. Politicians
exempted themselves, of course.
At this point Canada remains the only G8 country which does not even have
a feeble CAN-SPAM type of anti-spam statute.
Canada is also the only G8 country without a Criminal Code definition of
Identity Theft.
Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors should
stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in their

offices

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
to review reports prepared by employees of food processing companies.
He is also reportedly about to try to convince the other G8 countries
that the way out of the current deregulation induced banking crisis is to
further reduce the amount of regulation applied to financial institutions.
He recently got a reality check on his quaint notion that Canada has

somehow

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
morphed into a Conservative country. After whining about parliament not
being able to shape his Conservative vision because he only has a minority
he called an election and won another minority. What a waste of $600
million.

Nice - you just effectively invited the world's spammers to move to your
country.
Definently time to stay away from moose-meat too.

A good amount of junk fax spam comes from Canada.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors should
stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in their offices
to review reports prepared by employees of food processing companies.

Oh dear gods, this is going to get people killed. Melamine tests as
protein, if you use the cheap tests that get done onsite and don't do even
cursory eyeball tests, or sample with more expensive testing.

To call this criminally incompetent is an understatement. *

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors should
stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in their offices
to review reports prepared by employees of food processing companies.

Oh dear gods, this is going to get people killed. Melamine tests as
protein, if you use the cheap tests that get done onsite and don't do even
cursory eyeball tests, or sample with more expensive testing.

Already happened.

The "butcher's bill" of people on the official death toll from the recent
incident of Listeria contamination from a single Maple Leaf brand meat
processing plant has run up to dozens and is a significant fraction of the
number of Canadians killed in Afghanistan since 2002.

Meat exported to the USA has to be specially inspected, since the USA FDA
has zero tolerance for listeria in food.

Last winter my own MP, acting as a federal minister, ordered the restart
of a 50 year old nuclear reactor which would not pass licencing under any
national nuclear regulatory agency. Atomic Energy Canada had decided that
a Regulatory Order to install backup power for the emergency cooling system
was a suggestion that could be ignored. The Reactor's permit had been
suspended when an inspection during a shutdown revealed that the backup
power system had not been installed, so the Regulator ordered the reactor
to stay offline until one was installed. My MP, with no background in
engineering or physics, ordered it to be restarted, operating at 10 times
the internationally accepted maximum expectation of cooling failure.

To be fair they fired the Tory hack they had appointed to head AEC, not
just the regulator who had the temerity to follow the law and the regulations.

[Marc Bissonnette]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors
should stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in
their offices to review reports prepared by employees of food
processing companies.

Oh dear gods, this is going to get people killed. Melamine tests as
protein, if you use the cheap tests that get done onsite and don't do
even cursory eyeball tests, or sample with more expensive testing.

Already happened.
The "butcher's bill" of people on the official death toll from the
recent incident of Listeria contamination from a single Maple Leaf
brand meat processing plant has run up to dozens and is a significant
fraction of the number of Canadians killed in Afghanistan since 2002.
Meat exported to the USA has to be specially inspected, since the USA
FDA has zero tolerance for listeria in food.
Last winter my own MP, acting as a federal minister, ordered the
restart of a 50 year old nuclear reactor which would not pass
licencing under any national nuclear regulatory agency. Atomic Energy
Canada had decided that a Regulatory Order to install backup power for
the emergency cooling system was a suggestion that could be ignored.
The Reactor's permit had been suspended when an inspection during a
shutdown revealed that the backup power system had not been installed,
so the Regulator ordered the reactor to stay offline until one was
installed. My MP, with no background in engineering or physics,
ordered it to be restarted, operating at 10 times the internationally
accepted maximum expectation of cooling failure.
To be fair they fired the Tory hack they had appointed to head AEC,
not just the regulator who had the temerity to follow the law and the
regulations.

Give me a break. I live about 1/2 hour from AECL, the reactor of which you
speak. Several employees who work there happen to be my neighbours. That
enitre "safety" thing was nothing more than political backbiting.

The "backup power for the emergency cooling system":

Wasn't the primary backup
Nor was it the secondary backup.
Nor was it the tertiary backup.
It was the *fourth level* backup power system.

In other words: Not only would the reactor's normal day-to-day systems have
to suffer catastrophic failure, but:

So would the multi-level primary power backup
So would the multi-level secondary power backup
*and* so would the tertiary power backup **all** have to suffer
catastrophic failure in order for the *fourth level* power backups to even
be needed.

Short of a direct hit by an asteroid or nuclear weapon, the chances of this
happening aren't even of interest to mathemeticians *or* statisticians.

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by Marc Bissonnette
Give me a break. I live about 1/2 hour from AECL, the reactor of which you
speak. Several employees who work there happen to be my neighbours. That
enitre "safety" thing was nothing more than political backbiting.

Would they have anything do with those white elephant "Maple" reactors,
the ones that were supposed to replace the obsolete reactor, but will
never go into operation because the design, as implemented, has a positive
Coefficient of Reaction? That is, the reactivity increases as the reaction
rate increases, instead of declining.
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/16/1493652-canada-scraps-medical-isotope-reactors-plan
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-AECL_halts_development_of_MAPLE_project-1905082.html
http://ontario-geofish.blogspot.com/2007/12/primer-aecl-maple-reactors-mds-and.html

Thanks for illustrating why inspectors can't trust employees of companies
to make honest and accurate statements.

I'll take the regulator's view, and the view of nuclear engineers in other
countries, over anything AECL has to say about itself.

Do you remember the scandal a few years back when one of AECL's own welding
inspectors found that all of their welders needed remedial training because
none of them could make a closing weld that would pass inspection? AECL's
response was to put that inspector in a room with nothing to do until he
quit in disgust.

http://www.healthimaging.com/index.php?option=com_articles&view=article&id=10891
"The Office of the Auditor-General has estimated it would cost $600
million to refurbish the Chalk River site and bring it to modern
standards, including an undisclosed investment in the research reactor
itself, according to Globe & Mail."

Are you old enough to remember when Automakers claimed that seat belts,
padded dashboards, and flush mounted door latches weren't needed? One senior
auto engineer said on TV, with apparent sincerity, that he regularly
conducted brace exercises with his family in the car. That is, he would
shout "crash" as he was driving and his wife and kids were supposed to
brace themselves as best as they could. He assured TV viewers that this
was just as good as having seat belts and a padded dashboard.

Post by Marc Bissonnette
Wasn't the primary backup
Nor was it the secondary backup.
Nor was it the tertiary backup.
It was the *fourth level* backup power system.

The data center where the applications I work with run has a UPS with
lead acid batteries capable of running it for over half an hour, and 2
diesel generators, each of which is supposed to be able to run the data
center by itself. On Thanksgiving Sunday all the servers crashed after
45 minutes. One of the generators wouldn't run under load (weekly tests
are Non Load) and the other didn't generate enough power to keep the
batteries charged. Instead of quiescing and shutting down all the z/OS,
AIX, *IX and windows servers while there was still power they let everthing
run until the batteries drained.

The only thing funnier than no-nuke kooks spouting nonsense about a
subject they know nothing about is pro-nuke kooks who know a lot less
than they think they do. One in my 4th year physics class insisted that
if anything went wrong the control rods would move by gravity into a
position which would stop the reaction, end of story.

I referred him to one of my 2nd year profs, who had resonded to a student's
mention of Bessel functions with an ad hoc lecture about his days at Chalk
River, where he was involved in the analysis of power oscillations caused by
the cylindrical geometry and the fact that some of the reaction products
absorb neutrons, leading to oscillation as they absorb and decay. He also
discussed how certain transient reactor conditions during an uncontrolled
shut down can "poison" the fuel by producing exceptional amounts of neutron
absorbing fission products, or neutron absorbing decay products.

There is also the issue of heat produced by the fission and neutron absorption
products generated while the reactor was operating. They continue to decay
and produce dangerous heat long after the fission reactions stop.

On top of all that there is the matter of pipes for water, control rods,
and fuel bundles tending to bow, widen or bend from thermal expansion or
overpressure, even if there isn't a melt down, just a period of operation
at temperatures above the design limit.

A lot of corners were cut during the 1950s Cold War era. Those practices
should not be tolerated in reactors operating today.

[bz]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
On top of all that there is the matter of pipes for water, control rods,
and fuel bundles tending to bow, widen or bend from thermal expansion or
overpressure, even if there isn't a melt down, just a period of operation
at temperatures above the design limit.

Not just operation at high temperature, operation at high neutron flux
levels.

Consider what happens to a essential mechanical part (say the cladding on a
fuel rod) as the elements that it is composed of get transmuted into other
elements that no longer have the same chemical and mechanical properties.

Start with a nice stable atom. Add a few neutrons and then allow the
unstable isotope to give off a beta particle, adding a proton to the
nucleus....
Or give off an alpha particle, subtracting two protons from the nucleus.
In both cases you are also 'pumping' a gas into the essential mechanical
part, either hydrogen or helium.

None of these changes are going to make the mechanical parts better fitted
or stronger.

All are going to weaken and warp the materials.

[E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists]

Post by bz
Not just operation at high temperature, operation at
high neutron flux levels.
Consider what happens to a essential mechanical part
(say the cladding on a fuel rod) as the elements that
it is composed of get transmuted into other elements
that no longer have the same chemical and mechanical properties.
...
None of these changes are going to make the mechanical
parts better fitted or stronger.
All are going to weaken and warp the materials.

IIRC, One of the things that happened at Three Mile Island.

How is this related to spam again? Critical mass?
{Guess I'd have to read the back thread.}

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Thanks for illustrating why inspectors can't trust employees of companies
to make honest and accurate statements.

I'm quite pro-nuclear, but this is the big danger - the industry, almost
without exception, has been incompetent in running the plants and sometimes
bordering on the criminally corrupt.

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
The data center where the applications I work with run has a UPS with
lead acid batteries capable of running it for over half an hour, and 2
diesel generators, each of which is supposed to be able to run the data
center by itself. On Thanksgiving Sunday all the servers crashed after
45 minutes. One of the generators wouldn't run under load (weekly tests
are Non Load) and the other didn't generate enough power to keep the
batteries charged.

Sigh. $DAYJOB has a huge diesel generator which is buffered by a gigantic
battery bank. When some other equipment was added to the backup system,
they bypassed the batteries for them, wanting to isolate the truly
sensitive equipment, and because the other stuff was non-critical. The
first time they tested the new setup, every power supply on the rack blew
up because the switchover caused a spike that the battery system was
designed to deal with. That was an unpleasant few days. *

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Thanks for illustrating why inspectors can't trust employees of companies
to make honest and accurate statements.

I'm quite pro-nuclear, but this is the big danger - the industry, almost
without exception, has been incompetent in running the plants and sometimes
bordering on the criminally corrupt.

This is true, but it's not specific to the nuclear power industry. You
should see what it's like at coal fired plants.....
--scott

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by pv+ (PV)
I'm quite pro-nuclear, but this is the big danger - the industry, almost
without exception, has been incompetent in running the plants and sometimes
bordering on the criminally corrupt.

This is true, but it's not specific to the nuclear power industry. You
should see what it's like at coal fired plants.....

Absolutely. It's true all over the place. *

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by pv+ (PV)
Sigh. $DAYJOB has a huge diesel generator which is buffered by a gigantic
battery bank. When some other equipment was added to the backup system,
they bypassed the batteries for them, wanting to isolate the truly
sensitive equipment, and because the other stuff was non-critical. The
first time they tested the new setup, every power supply on the rack blew
up because the switchover caused a spike that the battery system was
designed to deal with. That was an unpleasant few days. *

This (Canadian Thanksgiving) outage was a carbon copy of a pair that happened
in 1992, a month apart. After the second one we were told that the operators
had been authorized to start shutting things down cleanly if they learned
that the batteries were draining and not being recharged from generators.

In addition to that they decided to upgrade the UPS and power feed, adding
a new BC Hydro feed from a different substation. Someone working for one
of the contractors used a metal tape measure to perform a practical
demonstration of how much power passes through the space around an
insulated conductor. Disk heads crashed against platters, on top of a prime
shift server outage.

I'm still waiting to get a look at the Significant Incident Review document,
to see whether it mentions the policy change promised in 1992 and whether it
was ignored or had been changed by the current operator without consulting
those of us who remembered the previous crashes.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Marc Bissonnette
Wasn't the primary backup
Nor was it the secondary backup.
Nor was it the tertiary backup.
It was the *fourth level* backup power system.

Actually, this is pretty damning. In a life-critical application, you
always have a fourth backup, which is usually completely different from
the other three. The space shuttle computers are designed this way, for
example. The continuum is:

- noncritical component - main and optional backup. Backup may be
simply a spare in the rack.
- Operationally critical - main and two backups.
- Possibility of catastrophic failure - main, two backups, and an
additional independent backup.

If your first three backups have any common mode of failure (which is quite
possible if they're simply hot spares running on the same power), then
you MUST have a fourth this way, or you haven't designed your system in a
way that has a good chance of surviving an external disaster. That's
leaving aside that a designed-in, but nonfunctional backup system may quite
possibly be WORSE than useless, if the supervisory system expects it to be
there, or an operator didn't get the memo and flips the wrong cutover
switch.

I don't know the specifics of this case, but you did not make a good
argument here, speaking in general about backup systems. *

[Marc Bissonnette]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Marc Bissonnette
Wasn't the primary backup
Nor was it the secondary backup.
Nor was it the tertiary backup.
It was the *fourth level* backup power system.

Actually, this is pretty damning. In a life-critical application, you
always have a fourth backup, which is usually completely different
from the other three. The space shuttle computers are designed this
- noncritical component - main and optional backup. Backup may be
simply a spare in the rack.
- Operationally critical - main and two backups.
- Possibility of catastrophic failure - main, two backups, and an
additional independent backup.
If your first three backups have any common mode of failure (which is
quite possible if they're simply hot spares running on the same
power), then you MUST have a fourth this way, or you haven't designed
your system in a way that has a good chance of surviving an external
disaster. That's leaving aside that a designed-in, but nonfunctional
backup system may quite possibly be WORSE than useless, if the
supervisory system expects it to be there, or an operator didn't get
the memo and flips the wrong cutover switch.
I don't know the specifics of this case, but you did not make a good
argument here, speaking in general about backup systems. *

Well, I probably didn't relate what the systems engineer told me. In a
nutshell (from my understanding) - the three existing backup systems are
completely separate from one another by design to minimize the chance of,
for example, whatever made backup #1 fail wouldn't make backup #2 fail.

In any event, he and his coworkers were quite adamant that this was
political back-biting and nothing more: They work there everyday, so I'd
think if it really was a safety issue, they'd be the first ones concerned
:)

Note: These guys are some of the ones who work directly with the reactor on
a daily basis: They're not management and they don't deal with the public.

Their statements were simply made from them to me and a few others, not to
the media or anything of the like, which leads me to believe them more than
the political BS that went on during the "crisis" of the missing emergency
backup system :)

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by Marc Bissonnette
In any event, he and his coworkers were quite adamant that this was
political back-biting and nothing more: They work there everyday, so I'd

The head of the NRC wasn't a political hack, tory or liberal.

Post by Marc Bissonnette
think if it really was a safety issue, they'd be the first ones concerned
:)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends
upon his not understanding it."

[Marc Bissonnette]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning

Post by Marc Bissonnette
In any event, he and his coworkers were quite adamant that this was
political back-biting and nothing more: They work there everyday, so I'd

The head of the NRC wasn't a political hack, tory or liberal.

Post by Marc Bissonnette
think if it really was a safety issue, they'd be the first ones concerned
:)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it."

That quote is entirely unaccurate; Suffice it to say that these people are
intimately familiar with the safety systems of the reactors because it
pretty much sums up a lot of what they do every day or their daily jobs are
entwined with them. (I say "suffice to say" simply because further
identifying them probably wouldn't be the best thing for their careers).

At any rate, whether you agree with me or not is moot; They got their
fourth reactor and those who work on the inside say that one shouldn't
always believe what you read in the papers.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Marc Bissonnette
political back-biting and nothing more: They work there everyday, so I'd
think if it really was a safety issue, they'd be the first ones concerned
:)

This is so NOT true. The more closely you work with something dangerous, the
more likely you are to underestimate the danger. This same mistake happens
over and over again ever day. *

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Marc Bissonnette
political back-biting and nothing more: They work there everyday, so I'd
think if it really was a safety issue, they'd be the first ones concerned
:)

This is so NOT true. The more closely you work with something dangerous, the
more likely you are to underestimate the danger. This same mistake happens
over and over again ever day. *

Like the employee of the electrical contractor who thought he would use a
metal tape measure to check the clearance around the high voltage lines
into the data center my applications run on, or the (Brown's ferry?) nuclear
plant staff who though using a burning candle would be a good way to tell if
that wiring duct had a draft.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Like the employee of the electrical contractor who thought he would use a
metal tape measure to check the clearance around the high voltage lines
into the data center my applications run on, or the (Brown's ferry?) nuclear
plant staff who though using a burning candle would be a good way to tell if
that wiring duct had a draft.

It's should be considered an axiom - the last person you want responsible
for writing and enforcing safety procedures are the people who are using
those procedures. It will never end well if you break that rule. *

[TUKA]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
At this point Canada remains the only G8 country which does not even have
a feeble CAN-SPAM type of anti-spam statute.

That is better than having one. All it does is make stupidos think
it is legal and ethical to spam if you "do it right".

[stinky]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada just entered the Do No Call List era a few weeks back. Politicians
exempted themselves, of course.

All politicians think they are exempt from their own rules. It goes with
the office/attitude. That is why there is not much overall difference
between Republicans/Democrats - liberals/conservatives. They are all
about ruling and being the ruling class. Make the rest of the world
follow the rules they make but EXEMPT themselves from the same rules.
Watch the global warming movement for this especially.
Politicians/Famous persons will still use their huge carbon footprints
to tell us (TINU) how we should reduce our carbon footprint.

**HYPOCRISY**

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
At this point Canada remains the only G8 country which does not even have
a feeble CAN-SPAM type of anti-spam statute.

It seems that the voices of those receiving spam haven't risen to the
level to cause the lawmakers to listen.

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada is also the only G8 country without a Criminal Code definition of
Identity Theft.

See above

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Our visionary right wing nut PM feels that Federal Food inspectors should
stay out of meat and other food processing plants, staying in their offices
to review reports prepared by employees of food processing companies.

Which is ignorant, if you give someone a reason to cheat there will be
someone that will take that advantage.

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
He is also reportedly about to try to convince the other G8 countries
that the way out of the current deregulation induced banking crisis is to
further reduce the amount of regulation applied to financial institutions.

It has been shown in many places that self-regulation doesn't work,
especially when a financial gain is involved. The problem is finding the
balance between self-regulation and burdensome regulation.

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
He recently got a reality check on his quaint notion that Canada has somehow
morphed into a Conservative country. After whining about parliament not
being able to shape his Conservative vision because he only has a minority
he called an election and won another minority. What a waste of $600
million.

Politicians are really good in using others money.

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by stinky

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
He recently got a reality check on his quaint notion that Canada has somehow
morphed into a Conservative country. After whining about parliament not
being able to shape his Conservative vision because he only has a minority
he called an election and won another minority. What a waste of $600
million.

Politicians are really good in using others money.

He had passed legislation earlier which specified a minimum 4 years between
elections. That is, the leader of the party with the largest number of MPs
wasn't supposed to drop an election writ in the first 4 years, although
they could lose a confidence vote. Of course, that law doesn't apply to
him, he can call an election whenever he wants to. He didn't even go through
the motions of putting forward a motion that all of the other parties would
vote against, forcing an election. He just said I want to have an election,
make it happen.

I've read that while politicians, newspapers, charities, pollsters are
exempt they have to maintain their own opt out list and can't call back
if you tell them to put you on their enterprise Do Not Call list.

I got a $100 credit from my cableco the last time they started soliciting
me, after receiving written notice that I would be billing them for any
future marketing mail or phone calls. Now my invoices arrive with" Dear
Resident" on the address line. Their story was that one of their marketers
had made an unauthorized extract of names and addresses, without checking
the Do Not Solicit flag in their client DB. That got the attention of the
Federal Privacy Commission, and got the cableco corporate legal head involved.

[stinky]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
I've read that while politicians, newspapers, charities, pollsters are
exempt they have to maintain their own opt out list and can't call back
if you tell them to put you on their enterprise Do Not Call list.

I don't think we have that process in the USA, plus our politicians,
charities and pollsters think we *NEED* to hear their junk for some
reason.

[HeyBub]

Post by stinky

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada just entered the Do No Call List era a few weeks back.
Politicians exempted themselves, of course.

All politicians think they are exempt from their own rules. It goes
with the office/attitude. That is why there is not much overall
difference between Republicans/Democrats - liberals/conservatives.
They are all about ruling and being the ruling class. Make the rest
of the world follow the rules they make but EXEMPT themselves from
the same rules. Watch the global warming movement for this especially.
Politicians/Famous persons will still use their huge carbon footprints
to tell us (TINU) how we should reduce our carbon footprint.
**HYPOCRISY**

First, there's nothing wrong with hypocrisy. 90% of the gynecologists are
men.

Second, you know little of what you speak. For the government to restrict a
specific constitutional right such as speech (i.e., telephone calls or
mailings) the government must adhere to the doctrine of "strict scrutiny."
Strict scrutiny involves three distinct parts:

1. The law at issue must have a compelling governmental interest.
2. The law must be narrowly tailored to meet the desired objectives.
3. The law must use the least restrictive method of meeting these
objectives.

In reality, the courts apply an even stricter standard when dealing with
politics, religion, or other constitutional subjects.

In the instant case, unless the exemption for political or religious
messages were part of the law, it is almost guaranteed that the entire law
would be struck down as unconstitutional.

[Rick Blackthorn]

Post by HeyBub

Post by stinky
**HYPOCRISY**

First, there's nothing wrong with hypocrisy. 90% of the gynecologists are
men.

How is that hypocrisy?

Post by HeyBub
Second, you know little of what you speak. For the government to restrict a
specific constitutional right such as speech (i.e., telephone calls or
mailings) the government must adhere to the doctrine of "strict scrutiny."

Sound trucks were outlawed in the US a few decades ago. They
used to be used for political, as well as other advertising.
It's the BEHAVIOR that should be restricted. The behavior of
junk faxing, the behavior of robocalls, the behavior of
spamming. I'm with "stinky" - for the politicians to exempt
themselves is hypocrisy.

Post by HeyBub
1. The law at issue must have a compelling governmental interest.
2. The law must be narrowly tailored to meet the desired objectives.
3. The law must use the least restrictive method of meeting these
objectives.
In reality, the courts apply an even stricter standard when dealing with
politics, religion, or other constitutional subjects.
In the instant case, unless the exemption for political or religious
messages were part of the law, it is almost guaranteed that the entire law
would be struck down as unconstitutional.

Why? If that were true, they could still use sound trucks. It's
not the message, it's the behavior. Politicians can (and do) use
snail mail to send some of their messages. They already have
that outlet.

[Kelly Bert Manning]

Post by HeyBub
Second, you know little of what you speak. For the government to restrict a
specific constitutional right such as speech (i.e., telephone calls or
mailings) the government must adhere to the doctrine of "strict scrutiny."

Y'all down in the USA may have freedom of speech and the presses, but it
doesn't exist in Britain or most former colonies.

Our PM's rhetoric suggest that he has confused freedom to spam, telemarket
and snail market with Gung Ho "Private Enterprise". You know, the sort that
says that companies that sell contaminated food will lose market share, making
it a self correcting problem.

[bar0]

Post by Kelly Bert Manning

Post by HeyBub
Second, you know little of what you speak. For the government to restrict a
specific constitutional right such as speech (i.e., telephone calls or
mailings) the government must adhere to the doctrine of "strict scrutiny."

Y'all down in the USA may have freedom of speech and the presses, but it
doesn't exist in Britain or most former colonies.
Our PM's rhetoric suggest that he has confused freedom to spam, telemarket
and snail market with Gung Ho "Private Enterprise". You know, the sort that
says that companies that sell contaminated food will lose market share, making
it a self correcting problem.

Well it is a self correcting problem, the companies lose business along with
reputation, and the existing luser base dies or refuses to buy from said
company , further eroding market share. Harper is right. In any case the
conservatives do what they have been doing since Joe Clarke left, which is
look across 49, and see what the US is doing poorly and copy it. Mulroney
was a specialist at that.

[stinky]

Post by HeyBub

Post by stinky

Post by Kelly Bert Manning
Canada just entered the Do No Call List era a few weeks back.
Politicians exempted themselves, of course.

All politicians think they are exempt from their own rules. It goes
with the office/attitude. That is why there is not much overall
difference between Republicans/Democrats - liberals/conservatives.
They are all about ruling and being the ruling class. Make the rest
of the world follow the rules they make but EXEMPT themselves from
the same rules. Watch the global warming movement for this especially.
Politicians/Famous persons will still use their huge carbon footprints
to tell us (TINU) how we should reduce our carbon footprint.
**HYPOCRISY**

First, there's nothing wrong with hypocrisy. 90% of the gynecologists are
men.

Not my wife's ;-)

Post by HeyBub
Second, you know little of what you speak. For the government to restrict a
specific constitutional right such as speech (i.e., telephone calls or
mailings) the government must adhere to the doctrine of "strict scrutiny."
1. The law at issue must have a compelling governmental interest.
2. The law must be narrowly tailored to meet the desired objectives.
3. The law must use the least restrictive method of meeting these
objectives.
In reality, the courts apply an even stricter standard when dealing with
politics, religion, or other constitutional subjects.
In the instant case, unless the exemption for political or religious
messages were part of the law, it is almost guaranteed that the entire law
would be struck down as unconstitutional.

The above is speaking to the laws as they exist now. I am talking about
changing the laws. Plus it wasn't just about Frea Speach rights. I
spoke of the exemption of politicians from most laws.

As for the free speech issue, where does the line get drawn between
harassment and free speech? I don't want to hear from ANY politician on
the phone, robo or not. I can make up my mind on my own. If a politician
wants to take the time to come by my house and I don't have anything on
my schedule we can sit and talk but it has to be one on one. Where does
the rights of politicians overrule my right to be left alone and not to
be indoctrinated by their 'views' (which many politicians lie about to
get elected.)

[HeyBub]

Post by stinky

Post by HeyBub
In the instant case, unless the exemption for political or religious
messages were part of the law, it is almost guaranteed that the
entire law would be struck down as unconstitutional.

The above is speaking to the laws as they exist now. I am talking
about changing the laws. Plus it wasn't just about Frea Speach
rights. I spoke of the exemption of politicians from most laws.

They get exempted from some laws because they write the laws and feel that
if they were subjected to the laws they pass they couldn't go about doing
the 'people's business.' But, still, they're not exempted from SOME laws.
Consider Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska or Representative William Jefferson
of New Orleans (or, for that matter, William Jefferson Clinton).

Post by stinky
As for the free speech issue, where does the line get drawn between
harassment and free speech? I don't want to hear from ANY politician
on the phone, robo or not. I can make up my mind on my own. If a
politician wants to take the time to come by my house and I don't
have anything on my schedule we can sit and talk but it has to be one
on one. Where does the rights of politicians overrule my right to be
left alone and not to be indoctrinated by their 'views' (which many
politicians lie about to get elected.)

Every "right" held by someone imposes a "duty" on someone else. This
conflict is, therefore, a balancing test. The "right" to propagate political
information imposes a "duty" on you to endure it. You, however, do not have
a right to be left alone.

[Rick Blackthorn]

Post by HeyBub
information imposes a "duty" on you to endure it. You, however, do not have
a right to be left alone.

Actually, we do, whether or not the right is recognized.